Hi Brian,
I took it upon myself to answer questions about risk assessment, as it was me that posted the original message about risk assessment.
When the thread about insurance and affiliation was opened up, I said I'd do what I can to answer people's questions there too, as I had the time to devote to it.
I don't feel I have been dismissive of other people, but I have also not been reticent to give counterpoint to some of the statements made. There have also been some very good points by other contributors, and both myself and the other committee members have taken them on board. In my opinion, these conversations have been a fair and honest exchange of opinions. However, the conversation has drifted away from my original idea to answer questions and queries.
You are quite right, that the role of Rep is to organise meets - that's all I want to do. I didn't get into this to restructure the organisation, but it became very obvious early on that changes needed to happen to protect the volunteers in the organisation. It's the first duty of any organisation to protect its volunteers, but ISKA leaves its volunteers hanging out to dry if something goes wrong.
Once volunteers are protected, I will be super keen to get down to doing what I volunteered to do, and I'm not the only one. If it was just me, we wouldn't be here having this conversation.
Anyway, I don't know what else I have to contribute to the debate, and we're now going around in circles. If anyone has any new points or questions to raise, I will be happy to address them as best I can, but apart from that, I think the general position has been fairly well teased out by now.
Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
Does it really matter if ISKA affiliates to CI?
I really appreciate your efforts on this. I understand that you are only trying to 'protect the volunteers in the organisation'. However, I don't understand how affiliating to CI will improve this.
In relation to your statement 'ISKA leaves its volunteers hanging out to dry if something goes wrong', what evidence do you have for this?
If insurance cover is the concern, why not just require members to show that they are members of CI, CANI or some other NGB that provides insurance? What difference will affiliating to CI make?
Maybe I just have an aversion to CI. Or maybe, I think that the best way to 'protect the volunteers in the organisation' is to do a top class risk assessment, aka trip plan. If I was to depend on CI and its insurance company to protect me, I would stay at home.
John
- Every and every ISKA meet undergoes a risk assessment. This risk assessment should be informed by best practice. Best practice is defined by CI, CANI, etc. The exemplary safety record at ISKA events indicates the risk assessment for ISKA meets follows best practice. Affiliating to CI will not improve those risk assessments.
- If an incident occurs at an ISKA meet, the performance of those associated with the meet is going to be assessed according to the standards set out by CI or CANI. Affiliating to CI will not changes this.
- In relation to '[protecting] the volunteers in the organisation', ISKA runs meets in Northern Ireland without affiliating to CANI. There doesn't seem to be a problem there. How is this achieved? Why not take the same approach in the Republic or Ireland?
- ISKA cannot insist that all ISKA members are also CI members. This would be unfair to CANI members. If ISKA wants all participants at ISKA meets to be insured, just require all ISKA members to be members of CI, CANI or some other NGB that provides insurance. There is no need to affiliate to CI to achieve this.
I really appreciate your efforts on this. I understand that you are only trying to 'protect the volunteers in the organisation'. However, I don't understand how affiliating to CI will improve this.
- Are you trying to tell us that the CI insurance only covers events organised by clubs affiliated to CI?
- If so, is that insurance cover invalidated if some of the participants at an event are not CI members? What if they are members of CANI or some other NGB that provides insurance? What if some participants are not members of any NGB?
- If not, what is the point of affiliating to CI? Just ask members to show that they are members of CI, CANI or some other NGB that provides insurance.
In relation to your statement 'ISKA leaves its volunteers hanging out to dry if something goes wrong', what evidence do you have for this?
If insurance cover is the concern, why not just require members to show that they are members of CI, CANI or some other NGB that provides insurance? What difference will affiliating to CI make?
Maybe I just have an aversion to CI. Or maybe, I think that the best way to 'protect the volunteers in the organisation' is to do a top class risk assessment, aka trip plan. If I was to depend on CI and its insurance company to protect me, I would stay at home.
John
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
Hi John,
Those are all good and fair questions. I will try to answer them as best I can.
Firstly, for individuals, membership of any EPP recognised NGB is sufficient. So Paddle NI members will not need to also join CI.
If we insist that all ISKA members are also NGB members, that would definitely be a step in the right direction. In that case, the Member to Member cover I mentioned to DW might come into play.
There are conditions to that cover though, the incident must have happened in one of the following contexts:
"1. Organising events sanctioned beforehand by Canoeing Ireland.
2. Participating in events sanctioned by Canoeing Ireland.
3. Participating in canoeing events other than sanctioned events once such canoeing events adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice.
4. Delivering training or coaching once such training or coaching adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice."
In the case of non-affiliation, we'd be looking at condition 3 above, I assume. So all the best practice conditions would still apply, just as they would if we were affiliated. So there is no easy route to cover, we still have to do all the 'due diligence', so to speak.
In the context of affiliation, we would be looking at meets as "club sanctioned activities" and the symposium as an event sanctioned by CI. This is what they are calling a "recognised event".
I think everything will be more straightforward if our activities are either club sanctioned or CI sanctioned, and will be easier if there is ever a claim.
I'm not 100% sure, but as an example, if it was a PNI member making a claim against a CI member who was an organiser, it could be a protracted and complicated process if were were dealing with 2 NGBs and 2 insurers, but if it was a CI or club sanctioned event, it would all be dealt with by the CI insurer, and hopefully be a simpler process.
Ultimately though, if we are affiliated, we will have a stronger voice in CI, to lobby for better insurance conditions, and a better deal for sea kayakers generally.
I stand over my statement that if there was an incident now, organisers and trip leaders would be hung out to dry, because we have nothing in place. ISKA members may or may not be NGB members. Risk assessments may or may not be documented, etc. etc.
If someone took legal action against one or more of us because of a loss they suffered, we'd be defending ourselves as individuals. We'd each have to find our own legal team to fight the case. It could drag on for months or years, and may or may not be successful. Even if ultimately negligence was not proven, it would be a harrowing experience to go through, and hopefully the plaintiff would have to pay legal costs...hopefully.
If negligence was proven...well it doesn't bear thinking about.
If there was a claim in the event of a sanctioned activity, it would be the CI/insurer legal team fighting the case for us. It would still be awful, having to give evidence and justify our actions etc., but a lot simpler than fighting it as individuals.
That's my understanding anyway. As I've said before, I'm no expert on these issues. I just know I don't want to be hung out to dry in the unlikely (but nowhere near impossible) event that something really goes pear-shaped some day.
Those are all good and fair questions. I will try to answer them as best I can.
Firstly, for individuals, membership of any EPP recognised NGB is sufficient. So Paddle NI members will not need to also join CI.
If we insist that all ISKA members are also NGB members, that would definitely be a step in the right direction. In that case, the Member to Member cover I mentioned to DW might come into play.
There are conditions to that cover though, the incident must have happened in one of the following contexts:
"1. Organising events sanctioned beforehand by Canoeing Ireland.
2. Participating in events sanctioned by Canoeing Ireland.
3. Participating in canoeing events other than sanctioned events once such canoeing events adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice.
4. Delivering training or coaching once such training or coaching adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice."
In the case of non-affiliation, we'd be looking at condition 3 above, I assume. So all the best practice conditions would still apply, just as they would if we were affiliated. So there is no easy route to cover, we still have to do all the 'due diligence', so to speak.
In the context of affiliation, we would be looking at meets as "club sanctioned activities" and the symposium as an event sanctioned by CI. This is what they are calling a "recognised event".
I think everything will be more straightforward if our activities are either club sanctioned or CI sanctioned, and will be easier if there is ever a claim.
I'm not 100% sure, but as an example, if it was a PNI member making a claim against a CI member who was an organiser, it could be a protracted and complicated process if were were dealing with 2 NGBs and 2 insurers, but if it was a CI or club sanctioned event, it would all be dealt with by the CI insurer, and hopefully be a simpler process.
Ultimately though, if we are affiliated, we will have a stronger voice in CI, to lobby for better insurance conditions, and a better deal for sea kayakers generally.
I stand over my statement that if there was an incident now, organisers and trip leaders would be hung out to dry, because we have nothing in place. ISKA members may or may not be NGB members. Risk assessments may or may not be documented, etc. etc.
If someone took legal action against one or more of us because of a loss they suffered, we'd be defending ourselves as individuals. We'd each have to find our own legal team to fight the case. It could drag on for months or years, and may or may not be successful. Even if ultimately negligence was not proven, it would be a harrowing experience to go through, and hopefully the plaintiff would have to pay legal costs...hopefully.
If negligence was proven...well it doesn't bear thinking about.
If there was a claim in the event of a sanctioned activity, it would be the CI/insurer legal team fighting the case for us. It would still be awful, having to give evidence and justify our actions etc., but a lot simpler than fighting it as individuals.
That's my understanding anyway. As I've said before, I'm no expert on these issues. I just know I don't want to be hung out to dry in the unlikely (but nowhere near impossible) event that something really goes pear-shaped some day.
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
So, let's see if I have this correct:
The only time I have to worry is if I do not '[adhere] at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'. If this case, I expect that the CI insurance company will walk away. Regardless of whether ISKA affiliates to CI or not.
Assuming I am a CI member, the only situation is which there is 'nothing in place' is when I do not '[adhere] at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'.
Have I missed something here?
Do you think that if ISKA affiliates to CI, and it is deemed that you, as meet organiser or trip leader, did not '[adhere] at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice' then the CI insurance company will be less likely to walk away?
If so, I understand your motivation. I just disagree with your assessment of whether the insurance company would walk away.
John
- If ISKA does not affiliate to CI, any CI member at an ISKA meet is covered by CI insurance as long as the meet 'adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'. The onus is on the meet organiser and trip leaders to ensure that meet 'adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'.
- If ISKA does affiliate to CI, then any CI member on 'club sanctioned activities', i.e. ISKA meet, is covered by CI insurance. In this case, the onus is on the 'club' to ensure that meet 'adheres at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'. However, the 'club' will presumably delegate this responsibility to the meet organiser and trip leaders. So, this is no different to the above.
The only time I have to worry is if I do not '[adhere] at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'. If this case, I expect that the CI insurance company will walk away. Regardless of whether ISKA affiliates to CI or not.
Assuming I am a CI member, the only situation is which there is 'nothing in place' is when I do not '[adhere] at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice'.
Have I missed something here?
Do you think that if ISKA affiliates to CI, and it is deemed that you, as meet organiser or trip leader, did not '[adhere] at all times to what would be considered accepted best practice' then the CI insurance company will be less likely to walk away?
If so, I understand your motivation. I just disagree with your assessment of whether the insurance company would walk away.
John
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
I don't know John, we would have to get advice on those questions, I think. You are really getting into the weeds there!
I'm not sure though that the insurance company could "walk away" as easily as you seem to think. Complying with best practice isn't that complicated. Once we comply with that, the insurance is obliged to compensate the plaintiff if his/her legal team can prove our negligence.
I have no way of knowing what it would take to prove negligence, as only the court can decide that.
If negligence can't be proven, the plaintiff gets nothing, and the insurance company saves making a pay-out. My gut feeling is that negligence would be difficult to prove if the meet was run to ISKA's usual high standards.
I'm not sure though that the insurance company could "walk away" as easily as you seem to think. Complying with best practice isn't that complicated. Once we comply with that, the insurance is obliged to compensate the plaintiff if his/her legal team can prove our negligence.
I have no way of knowing what it would take to prove negligence, as only the court can decide that.
If negligence can't be proven, the plaintiff gets nothing, and the insurance company saves making a pay-out. My gut feeling is that negligence would be difficult to prove if the meet was run to ISKA's usual high standards.
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
I am sorry if you think I am
I was trying to figure out what all this debate is actually about.
In my opinion, individual members can get insurance cover for their sea kayaking activities, including organising meets and leading trips, by joining CI or some other NGB.
ISKA affiliating to CI will not improve on that cover.
So why is the committee advocating for ISKA to affliate to CI?
.getting into the weeds
I was trying to figure out what all this debate is actually about.
In my opinion, individual members can get insurance cover for their sea kayaking activities, including organising meets and leading trips, by joining CI or some other NGB.
ISKA affiliating to CI will not improve on that cover.
So why is the committee advocating for ISKA to affliate to CI?
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
I am about to go out and don't have time just now to reply to help clarify some of the points but there are a number of fundamental ideas being posited about how liability, the law, litigation and insurance would work across today's posts where there are some important confusions about how things work. I'll try to find some time to do a few basic pointers later tonight or tomorrow. The position is even more tricky in NI and is going to become even more difficult when all the Paddle UK/PaddleNI Standards of Deployment are effective.
Honestly, the "weeds" or the key, endless little details are what are actually critical to all of this discussion and to whatever recommendations you are proposing to make (on either side of the argument). If people don't understand those and don't fully understand how the law and insurance will apply to a situation precisely because of the details then they can't make an argument or recommendation either way with this debate because miniscule details can completely change a major outcome.
If this was simple and as cut and dried as people want it to be, then lawyers and litigation wouldn't exist!
Honestly, the "weeds" or the key, endless little details are what are actually critical to all of this discussion and to whatever recommendations you are proposing to make (on either side of the argument). If people don't understand those and don't fully understand how the law and insurance will apply to a situation precisely because of the details then they can't make an argument or recommendation either way with this debate because miniscule details can completely change a major outcome.
If this was simple and as cut and dried as people want it to be, then lawyers and litigation wouldn't exist!
-
brianmacmahon
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
I wouldn’t mind getting into the weeds a bit.
The devil after all is in the detail.
Affiliating with CI and qualifying for their insurance cover obviously requires us to adhere to “best practise” but what does that mean to ISKA and to the way we run meets and symposiums. I’d really like to see some detail.
What are the parameters.
What are the guidelines.
Restrictions if any … such as paddling in F3 but not F4 etc etc.
certification ? L4 to lead ? L3 to paddle ???
Ratios ??
Additional certification for leaders such as REC 3
and so forth ….
At what point do we stray outside the insurance cover.
It was those details or lack of that we couldn’t get from CI the last time this issue came up.
Perhaps now that Sue has her feet under the CI table we might actually get some clarity.
That would go a long way towards settling this issue.
Many thanks
Brian Mac
The devil after all is in the detail.
Affiliating with CI and qualifying for their insurance cover obviously requires us to adhere to “best practise” but what does that mean to ISKA and to the way we run meets and symposiums. I’d really like to see some detail.
What are the parameters.
What are the guidelines.
Restrictions if any … such as paddling in F3 but not F4 etc etc.
certification ? L4 to lead ? L3 to paddle ???
Ratios ??
Additional certification for leaders such as REC 3
and so forth ….
At what point do we stray outside the insurance cover.
It was those details or lack of that we couldn’t get from CI the last time this issue came up.
Perhaps now that Sue has her feet under the CI table we might actually get some clarity.
That would go a long way towards settling this issue.
Many thanks
Brian Mac
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
Hi John, Brian
Thanks for these detailed questions which are really pressure testing committee decision making and information gathering. We deeply appreciate your time and thinking on this issue. It helps add clarity and information for all ISKA members.
John You mentioned in your last post that
"In my opinion, individual members can get insurance cover for their sea kayaking activities, including organising meets and leading trips, by joining CI or some other NGB."
The situation is that only affiliated clubs are insured for club sanctioned activities. Individual members cannot sanction and organise meets/trips/events etc. So while individual ISKA members currently organise a meet or event, even if they are members of CI, without ISKA being affiliated to CI their individual CI membership does not cover them for organising that event.
ISKA affiliating to CI enables it to be insured for its meets as the committee is able to sanction them and therefore meet organisers, trip leaders etc are insured.
Also, individual CI membership is €50 but if you are a member of a club ( e.g. ISKA if it affiliates to CI), then CI membership and access to its insurance is €30 per person as it is for any club member. Many ISKA members are already members of other clubs and as has been mentioned before would not have to pay CI membership twice on production of their current CI Ecard/Proof of payment to ISKA.
I hope that helps to answer your questions.
Brian - Your questions about ratios, conditions etc were raised very early on by other members of the committee and have been put to CI by Rob Scanlon who has been the point of contact with CI throughout all of this process. They have been addressed by CI and ISKA committee is happy with the quality of the answers which resulted in the proposal to have documented RAs and trip leader/participant ratios. I have not had direct contact with Board throughout this process except for one recent query.
Thanks
Thanks for these detailed questions which are really pressure testing committee decision making and information gathering. We deeply appreciate your time and thinking on this issue. It helps add clarity and information for all ISKA members.
John You mentioned in your last post that
"In my opinion, individual members can get insurance cover for their sea kayaking activities, including organising meets and leading trips, by joining CI or some other NGB."
The situation is that only affiliated clubs are insured for club sanctioned activities. Individual members cannot sanction and organise meets/trips/events etc. So while individual ISKA members currently organise a meet or event, even if they are members of CI, without ISKA being affiliated to CI their individual CI membership does not cover them for organising that event.
ISKA affiliating to CI enables it to be insured for its meets as the committee is able to sanction them and therefore meet organisers, trip leaders etc are insured.
Also, individual CI membership is €50 but if you are a member of a club ( e.g. ISKA if it affiliates to CI), then CI membership and access to its insurance is €30 per person as it is for any club member. Many ISKA members are already members of other clubs and as has been mentioned before would not have to pay CI membership twice on production of their current CI Ecard/Proof of payment to ISKA.
I hope that helps to answer your questions.
Brian - Your questions about ratios, conditions etc were raised very early on by other members of the committee and have been put to CI by Rob Scanlon who has been the point of contact with CI throughout all of this process. They have been addressed by CI and ISKA committee is happy with the quality of the answers which resulted in the proposal to have documented RAs and trip leader/participant ratios. I have not had direct contact with Board throughout this process except for one recent query.
Thanks
Re: Canoeing Ireland Affiliation/ Insurance
Thanks for your reply Sue.
Let's see if I understand you correctly.
Let's say I organise a meet outside of a CI-affiliated club. Everyone at the meet is a CI member. An incident occurs and somebody decides to sue me because they think that I, as the meet organiser, was negligent. The CI insurance policy will not cover me.
However, if I organise the meet inside of CI-affiliated club, then the CI insurance policy will cover me.
Is this correct?
Let's see if I understand you correctly.
Let's say I organise a meet outside of a CI-affiliated club. Everyone at the meet is a CI member. An incident occurs and somebody decides to sue me because they think that I, as the meet organiser, was negligent. The CI insurance policy will not cover me.
However, if I organise the meet inside of CI-affiliated club, then the CI insurance policy will cover me.
Is this correct?