ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Posts by the ISKA committee for discussion by members and posts by members for the attention of ISKA committee
brianmacmahon
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by brianmacmahon » Sun Jul 24, 2016 3:38 pm

Ha ha ha your right Of course Mr Walsh we should all chillax !

To be fair to the ECSKA lads us Westies took no offence in being called socialist pinko lefty's !
It probably sums up our leadership ethos perfectly :lol:

I think the fascist comment was for you though Dave :lol:

Mac

Tronayne
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:55 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Tronayne » Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:36 pm

This topic of insurance, for me, comes down to the question of "Who is to blame"?

Given that we have an ISKA member with an above average knowledge!! of the Irish legal system taking part in these threads maybe its time to get rid of the emotions and deal with our realities.

If a person with paddling ability takes another person with lesser paddling ability on a sea kayaking trip in conditions that were not favourable or became unfavourable for the lesser paddler and there was a serious accident or a drowning who is to blame?

Is it a peer paddle if some of the group are of a lesser ability than others in the group?

Tom

brianmacmahon
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by brianmacmahon » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:00 pm

Mr Walsh is more qualified to answer that question Tom.

I certainly am not.

The problem is that there is no precedent to call upon. Therefore you have to rely on the law as it stands.
There is contributory negligence to take into account and many many more factors. It would be completely up in the air what the outcome of a civil action would be.

David might enlighten us further with his knowledge !

It might be a good idea for the committee to get professional legal advice regarding these issues. I'd be curious as to what the advice would be.

Mac

Chris McDaid
Posts: 129
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Chris McDaid » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:06 pm

Tom,

"If a person with paddling ability takes another person with lesser paddling ability on a sea kayaking trip in conditions that were not favourable or became unfavourable for the lesser paddler and there was a serious accident or a drowning who is to blame?"

This scenario wouldn't take place either under the auspices of ISKA or ECSKC. This would just be 2 mates going for a paddle. ECSKC insurance wouldn't cover you I reckon.

Blame? If conditions become unfavourable? I'd say impossible to apportion blame unless prior knowledge of changes in conditions were known

Cheers,
Chris

brianmacmahon
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by brianmacmahon » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:38 am

I was reading over Alan Horners posts last night trying to put myself in his shoes and do you know what he has valid points.

From Alan's perspective peer paddles are not peer paddles if he or his Level 4/5 colleagues are on the trip. After all level 2 and a level 4 are not peers. By attaining the lofty heights of a level 4/5 qualification Alan rightly fears that he may have put a target on his back.

If there was an incident God forbid then the most qualified on the trip would be in the spotlight.

We don't have that problem in the west as we are mostly peers. I believe we have only one level 4 in our ranks and he's terrible (only joking). I myself can only aspire to such heights. I've over 10 years sea kayaking experience on the West coast but my skill levels are dismal. One day when my teenage daughters have stopped draining my account of every penny I'll rectify the situation. God help who ever instructs me. I've so many years of bad bad habits.
Those that have taken the time and the money to reach such heights should not feel penalised or threatened because they give their time at ISKA meets. I still strongly believe that insurence is not the safety net people believe it to me. I believe the best answer is what the Scottish association do and what some of the French associations do also. A legal deceleration signed in payment of membership. I'd take a legal signed document over insurence any day.

Mac

mcorbett
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by mcorbett » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:16 am

"To be fair to the ECSKA lads us Westies took no offence in being called socialist pinko lefty's !"
Speak for yourself Brian, I'm severely traumatised & currently seeking legal advice.

1. Thanks to Alan Horner for his contributions. I take your point wrt reaction vs argument.

2. Ta to A. Finn for his contribution & Dave Walsh also.

3. With all that money in the kitty I'd suggest we get proper legal advice regarding the best option/s.
The worst case scenario is a system which doesn't work after a very divisive process.

Matt

EWAN
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by EWAN » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:05 pm

Hi Folks
‘Lefty Pinko’ is a term of endearment where I come from, Ruth Coppinger is my local rep! The political references were well underway before mine but I'll take the slap.

It is nice to think that we are as free as the fairies, but the reality is there are laws / rules / regulations / guidelines covering kayaking. It’s right for the committee to check if we are kidding ourselves. If I drive dangerously I can be charged with dangerous driving, regardless of whether I have insurance or not. Equally we have some responsibilities on the water whether we choose to acknowledge them or not. Claiming ignorance of laws / rules / regulations / guidelines is not a defence.

Insurance only comes into play if there is a claim as a result of an incident. My understanding is that a court could use ‘best practice’ of the governing body (ICU) as a guide to whether there was negligence in an incident. The possible outcomes are not known until its tested in court and I’ve no doubt that most of what we do coincides with guidelines. There is no single document defining best practice and maybe there is some leeway in that.

Not having insurance does not help us in any way and having insurance might help us.

To me the question should be: is the ICU insurance adequate or does ISKA need something else. The ISKA committee could ask ECSKC what more do they get from their separate insurance.

Beannachtaí
Ewan

afinn
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by afinn » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:22 pm

That is the question I have asked, awaiting an answer.

On Joe Duffy,now, a man who had a water tank fall through his ceilings in his home. Damage, 15,000e.
He was not asked if he had a criminal record,on the form like. It did not ask if any of his family had a criminal record, nor does my form BTW.
Anyway,his son is serving time in the UK for smuggling drugs in a lorry,the son was a truck driver....
The insurance company found out, no one knows how and are refusing to pay the man because he did not tell them about his son who was sentenced 4 yrs ago.
They are using this to stop a claim of 15,000e.
I could regale you with many more such stories.
Insurance is great if you are covered....IF....

DaveWalsh
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by DaveWalsh » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:45 pm

My regrets but nothing in my day job makes me smarter than the average bear in matters of this kind. It can be researched of course and I have a feeling I did that before, possibly more than once, possibly on behalf of current players, or those who went before them, but I don't remember the specifics. Sorry.
DWalsh

brianmacmahon
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by brianmacmahon » Mon Jul 25, 2016 3:29 pm

We all have those insurence stories Alan. It's the terms and conditions that get you. How many of us take the time to examine those conditions.

Brought my car in for a service three months ago. The lady at the service desk noticed that my driving licence was about to expire and the jokingly said you wouldn't be covered by insurence. She told me of a retired gentleman who bought his very first Merc on January of this year. A scumbag broke into his house stole the keys and wrote off the car. You'd think that'd be a very straight forward insurence claim ..... No !
Insurence company wanted to see his driving licence. He searched the house for it and low and behold it had lapsed. Insurence null and void !! Poor man €40,000 outa pocket.

I have said this before but it bears repeating. Insurence companies do NOT LIKE TO PAY OUT !!!

If any of you reading this have points on your licence and you automatically renewed your insurence without informing the insurence company ..... Null and Void !!!

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