Insurance

General discussion
iskacommittee
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Insurance

Post by iskacommittee » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:35 am

The ISKA committee started researching and discussing the issue of insurance since July 2016. It was agreed at an early stage that any decision on this issue would be in the hands of the members of ISKA. There are a number of different types of insurance that might be of interest to ISKA members, including:
  • Personal accident insurance to cover them in case they injure themselves;
  • Third-party insurance to cover them in case they injure somebody else or in case of a claim of negligence while leading on an ISKA meet;
  • Legal fees insurance to cover the cost of legal fees arising from a legal action against them;
  • Boat insurance to cover them in case of damage to their kayak.
In addition, ISKA committee members might want Directors and Officers insurance to cover them in the event of a claim of negligence. We sought legal advice from a number of solicitors. We received advice in favour of and against taking out insurance.

At an ISKA committee meeting on 4th February 2017, the committee decided to take out Directors and Officers insurance. This will cost approximately €270. It was also decided that members will have to agree to the following waiver on joining or renewing membership:

I accept that sea kayaking is an adventurous sport, which by its very nature is a sport that involves a degree of risk of personal injury or death. I accept these risks and agree to be responsible for my own actions and involvement. I accept that the Irish Sea Kayaking Association cannot be held liable for any injuries to me caused by others, or for any injuries to others caused by me, due to my participation or involvement at ISKA events.

Finally, the committee agreed to put the following motion to ISKA members for approval or rejection:

All members of ISKA must take out third-party insurance by doing one of the following:
  • Joining their national governing body for kayaking/canoeing (for example, Canoeing Ireland (CI) or the Canoe Association of Northern Ireland (CANI)), or
  • Taking out independent third-party insurance to provide cover them in the case of an accident to third parties at ISKA meets.
The committee is organising an online vote on this motion. This vote will be open from 15th February 2017 until 1st March 2017. Anyone who was a member of ISKA in 2016, or anyone who joins ISKA before 24th February 2017, will be eligible to vote. There will be another post in the next few days outlining information gathered by the committee in relation to the options above.

The acceptance or rejection of this proposal will make no difference to how ISKA meets are organised. ISKA will continue to organise and run meets with the aim of adhering to what would be considered accepted best practice.

We have put a lot of effort into this issue and hopefully we can answer the many questions that will get asked.

ISKA committee

conorsmith
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by conorsmith » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:09 am

To the Committee, this morning we are receiving your emails about the insurance survey as promised. Looking at the post above and your emails, I think a little more information is required before we can complete the survey.

When ISKA joined Canoeing Ireland a number of years ago, the individual members could choose whether or not to sign up. The new Canoeing Ireland guidelines now require ALL members of an affiliated group to join. Where does this leave members who are already affiliated to other groups, i.e. BCU, CANI etc. Will Canoeing Ireland recognise that or will these people have to pay twice?

Visitors. The vast majority if not all ISKA members came to a paddle as a visitor at some point before deciding whether or not to join the group. Visitors as potential members have always been the lifeblood of the association. You might confirm if this practice will still remain?

How far does Canoeing Ireland insurance extend. Covering PL, is this on ISKA meets only or are other events covered, peer paddles or otherwise. Are we covered in Ireland only, Ireland and the UK, Europe, etc?

Will it impose restrictions or place obligations on who can lead the trips and specify numbers?

If we have a meet where some participants do not hold insurance and there is an incident, how does this affect the insurance cover? Going forward will leaders be obliged to take a roll call before the event can go ahead?

Any other relevant information would be appreciated and I am sure others will have questions too.

Thanks.

brianmacmahon
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by brianmacmahon » Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:31 pm

As it stands lads I'd be inclined to vote no on the insurance issue.
The information being provided is vague on certain issues.
For instance will members be able to bring guests or friends along to meets.
I myself attended two meets before joining ISKA.

It's how ISKA has traditionally expanded their membership by being open and allowing non members to participate. By having mandatory insurance will that stop.

If that's the case I'm voting no.

Mac

conorhilliard
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by conorhilliard » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:00 pm

If insurance is voted in does that mean that anyone that objects to taking out insurance will be denied membership to ISKA?
Everybody should be entitled to take out insurance if they are more comfortable with it but that should not mean they force others to do it.

Have the implications of this been investigated and what is the estimated loss of ISKA members?

Conor.

geo
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by geo » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:31 am

The issue of guests has arisen previously with CI and come try it sessions with affiliated clubs. At the time the advise provided was that come and try it was covered when clubs are seeking new members, as were taster session but something that was for week in week out was not covered. Many clubs will run 1 or two evenings of introductory sessions and these were covered, but these aspirants were then required to take out membership which included insurance.

As numbers grow on meets and people have scrapes (near misses!), not being able to afford to pay for the medical expenses that you cause to someone or other damage may become an issue for some. In addition if someone has to go in and rescue you and incurs damage and a cost, is it acceptable to let them be out of pocket?

Normally, I would am not worried about such issues, however one friend could not paddle for over a year after being hit in the back of the shoulder by an inexperienced sea kayaker who couldn't control their boat in a following sea, Fortunately, he had insurance through the club, that reimbursed the physio and other medical costs. I have been out of pocket having had to use and loose various equipment in rescues and when I eventually asked one person I rescued could they pay for the replacement flares that I used, they laughted and thought I was joking. This is the same person I had earlier made a decision that I may have to write off my boat to land them alive (wrong decision on my part!).

People have to make their own decisions as to what they are willing to sign up to or not, but affiliating to your NGB (be it CANI, CI, WCA, BCU, etc) to have that backup and be able to extend a club policy to cover pool sessions and avail of their sea boats etc seems worth the ext 20 or 30 to me. If you are already in a club and affiliated you don't have to rejoin your NGB again but your club has to have the proof and the facility to allow this.

conorsmith
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by conorsmith » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:53 am

Very valid points Geo and thanks.

If the insurances covered the items you mentioned above for only €20/€30, I see no reason why everyone would not look to have cover.

Does anyone have details of what the CI insurance covers, what exclusions apply and if there are excesses? Will it cover equipment, injury, legal fees or just plain and simple public liability only?

If the information was shared, it would allow members make an informed decision.

iskacommittee
Posts: 38
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by iskacommittee » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:09 am

What is third party insurance? (http://www.businessdictionary.com/defin ... rance.html)
Third party insurance is liability insurance purchased by an insured (the first party) from an insurer (the second party) for protection against the claims of another (the third) party. The first party is responsible for its own damages or losses whether caused by itself or the third party.

Why would I need third party insurance? (http://cani.org.uk/download/british-can ... dmdl=10466)
All of us understand that deliberately causing injury to others is a criminal offence ordinarily resulting in punishment of the perpetrator. All of us understand that some injuries are accidental, i.e the circumstances giving rise to them are wholly unforeseeable. No one is responsible. No compensation is payable. In between those two ends of the spectrum are ‘negligent acts’, i.e they are not deliberate, but the injury is foreseeable. The negligent person will not be punished however the injured party may seek financial compensation as a result. The compensation is paid by the individual who has caused the [injury].

In terms of sea kayaking, what is a negligent act? (http://cani.org.uk/download/british-can ... dmdl=10466)
Each of us owes a ‘duty of care’ to our ‘[fellow paddlers]’ not to cause them injury by our negligent acts and omissions. In order to satisfy or ‘discharge’ that duty of care you must behave as a ‘reasonable person’ would but taking into account your specific skill, knowledge and experience. For example, ‘reasonable’ non-medically qualified ‘rescuer’ might be forgiven a medical mistake which a reasonable qualified paramedic would be expected not to make.

The duty of care requires you to consider the consequences of your acts and omissions and to ensure that those acts and/or omissions do not give rise to a foreseeable risk of injury to any other person. Clearly, one is not expected to guarantee the safety of others, merely to act reasonably.

As a [trip leader] you have accepted the responsibility of leading others. You owe them a duty to ensure that they are not exposed to a foreseeable risk of injury as far as you reasonably can. It should be noted that on any outing where a group leader has not been appointed the most experienced and or qualified person there ought reasonably to intervene and at least advise if a foreseeable risk of injury arises.

What are the regulations and obligations associated with third party insurance?
If an accident happens in the Republic of Ireland (ROI), or Northern Ireland (NI), the insurance cover is only provided if the third party adheres to what would be considered best practice, as defined by Canoeing Ireland (CI), or the Canoeing Association of Northern Ireland (CANI), respectively. An aspect of best practice is the ratio of leaders to paddlers on any kayaking trip.

As mentioned above, trip leaders--whether designated or not--are particularly vulnerable to claims of negligence. In terms of best practice for leaders, CI does not have a leadership qualification, per se. The only CI qualifications that mention leadership are the Level 5 skills award, and the Level 3 and Level 4 instructor awards. These awards specify the conditions in which the holder is qualified to lead. CANI (and the BCU in general) do have leadership qualifications. The 4* and 5* skills awards are leadership qualifications (that also require a certain level of personal skill). Each of the CI and CANI qualifications above specifies a number of paddlers that the holder is qualified to lead and the conditions is which they are qualified to lead. The ratio is either 1:6 or 1:8 depending on the conditions and the qualification.

NOTE: These ratios do not change because a member, trip leader or club decides to take out insurance.

Where does third party insurance cover extend to?
This varies according to the policy. CI insurance provides worldwide cover. CANI insurance provides cover in the ROI and the UK, and perhaps beyond. CI and CANI insurance covers all on-the-water kayaking activity, not just ISKA meets. Anyone living in the ROI or NI can join either CI or CANI to avail of their insurance policy. CI insurance includes personal accident insurance and legal fees insurance. CANI insurance includes legal fees insurance and can include boat insurance at an extra cost.

You can also get independent sports accident insurance that provides third party insurance with the ROI and the UK. This can include personal accident cover and legal fees cover also.

What are the implications of approving the proposal to require all members to have third party insurance?
One of the most important of implications is whether or not non-members will be allowed to attend ISKA meets. The number of meets that non-members could attend would need to be limited; otherwise there would be no point in making insurance a requirement. One option would be to prevent non-members attending any meets but this would prevent potential members getting a taste of an ISKA meet before joining. An alternative option would be to limit non-members to a small number of meets but this would mean that some people at ISKA meets may be uninsured. This issue will need to be addressed if third party insurance becomes a requirement of membership.

There has been no discussion about how this requirement would be implemented if approved. There are a number of options including the following:
  • The membership form is amended to a checkbox to confirm that each member has third party insurance;
  • The membership form is amended to request members to provide the name of their insurance provider and a membership/policy number;
  • The membership is not amended and members are trusted to take out insurance.
There may be other options. A decision has yet to be made on how to implement the proposal if it is approved.
Some members will be reassured to know that there is an insurance policy if they are injured negligently. Other members will be concerned that a ‘compensation culture’ may develop.

What are the implications of rejecting the proposal to require all members to have third party insurance?
The committee may decide to recommend that members take out third party insurance but the final decision will be left in the hands individual members. If an ISKA member is injured negligently by another member, the injured party may not know if the member that caused the injury has third party insurance.

What is the cost of third party insurance?
Membership of CI costs €30. If ISKA renews it’s affiliation of CI, the membership cost is €20. Due to recent rule changes in CI, there is a question over whether or not ISKA renews it’s CI affiliation for 2017. The details of the CI insurance policy are available here: http://canoe.ie/insurance/

Recreational membership of CANI costs £18. Full membership of CANI costs £45. Full membership provides insurance cover for qualified leaders whilst leading kayaking trips. If ISKA affiliated to CANI, affiliate membership would cost £10 but this would only provide cover on ISKA meets. For ISKA to affiliate to CANI, it would need to put a constitution in place. The details of the CANI insurance policy are available here: http://cani.org.uk/information-advice/insurance/

Private sports accident insurance is available from a number of brokers/companies. For example, Sports Cover Direct (https://www.sportscoverdirect.com/) provide third party and personal accident insurance starting at €36 for members living in the ROI or NI and will cover kayaking activities anywhere in the ROI or the UK. It will actually cover a number of other sporting activities also.


Finally, this is not legal advice. For legal advice, you would need to consult a solicitor. The ISKA committee did this and received advice in favour of and against insurance.

ISKA committee

geo
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by geo » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:07 pm

The unseen workings
I am a club member in he GOYA Gang but the advantages we found were, when we wanted a pool session, indemnity was usually required so we would contact the CI office and arrange for the pool premises include on the CI policy for x weeks / sessions. Being able to this by email or phone was great, whereas arranging a separate policy was a real pain and a lot of extra work.

Yes, there are some other bits one needs such as a constitution, but this can be short in fact the shorter the better. Hands up I have been involved in CI but as many could testify this was not very amicable at times, hence I am not canvassing on their behalf, I have also been a member of CANI, BCU, WCA.. I took whatever suited my needs at the time, as there is no point in reinvesting the wheel.

One concern voiced previously by someone was a reluctance to join over a need to get qualifications. All NGBs have award schemes but there is no obligation to take part or adopt them by anyone. Whatever some other think, ISKA appears to benchmark at times from these awards but joining an NGB does not impose its award structure ......UNLESS THE MEMBERS decide to adopt it and enforce those awards as criteria for leading trips, by writing it into its safety statement / constitution, etc.I am NOT recommending or advocating this.

More people are less accepting of the risks involved in adventure sports or the responsibility they have to take for themselves these days in the outdoors. This is seen in other areas of society and has been reflected in a decline in volunteerism and in people taking positions of responsibility across all voluntary sectors / sports / organisations. As one of the founder members I am not happy that ISKA may be going this way, but I understand that things have changed and evolved over the last 25 years, in particular peoples attitude to accepting personal responsibility and attributing blame. So from that perspective and a longer experience in adventure sports I can see the sense in having a discussion on the topic and adapting whatever the membership feels is most appropriate. Lets have a few more anti-insurance posts!! Debate and diverging views are healthy as at least issues get an airing and members can make a more informed vote

brianmacmahon
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by brianmacmahon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:40 am

Well said Geo.

Lads I am not an expert on matters of insurance. I come from a family of Solicitors, two generations of them.
When a Solicitor ascertains whether an action can be taken they look for the money.
ISKA as it stands is unique as we don't have a constitution, health and safety statements, best practise procedures etc. Most importantly ISKA has no insurance. So when a Solicitor is approached about taking a legal action against ISKA the first hurdle is who do you sue. There are other considerations like contributing negligence etc. By sitting into your boat you are accepting a level of risk. Legally that's very ambiguous.

What I do know is ISKA as it currently stands is a Solicitors nightmare to sue.

Like the old adage "if you build it they will come"

"If there is insurance they will sue"

My belief that it should be up to each individual member whether to take out insurance or whether to affiliate with a club or ICU etc. I think ISKA should stay out of these particular waters.

Once you make it mandatory on the membership regulations and procedures and other red tape will surely follow.

By the by I'm no Solicitor. My Father is though and is completely in agreement. I myself did business law.


I
Mac

conorsmith
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Insurance

Post by conorsmith » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:43 am

The focus at the moment is primarily on whether or not we should have insurance. It should be equally important that any choice we make is fit purpose. You are under a false illusion if you believe just because you hold insurance, you are actually covered.

If we are to consider the CI option for example and look at their own wording, I would seriously question whether it is fit for purpose:
the insurance cover is only provided if the third party adheres to what would be considered best practice, as defined by Canoeing Ireland
The only CI qualifications that mention leadership are the Level 5 skills award, and the Level 3 and Level 4 instructor awards.
The ratio is either 1:6 or 1:8 depending on the conditions and the qualification.

If ISKA as a group takes the CI insurance option and we expect to rely on it to protect ourselves, this begs the question - does ISKA have enough certified paddlers holding these only recognised qualifications who are prepared to share out and lead each and every one of our proposed meets limited to the ratio specified?

There are other options on the table, including CANI and/or Sports Cover Direct. As of yet I have not looked at their wording. If anyone is familiar with either of these, perhaps you might add a comment?



Post script - it would appear CANI similarly uses governing body guidelines and unfortunately is unlikely fit for purpose.

I am possibly giving the impression that I am anti-insurance, which is certainly not the case. It is actually what I do for a living, albeit I am no longer in the General Insurance field (thankfully). The insurance must be fit for purpose and if we take the option and want to be covered, it is important that we also understand it will require us to completely change the way we operate as an organisation.

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