Hi.
Follow the link below to view the revised and updated skills awards for both sea and river kayak. These proposed changes will be put forward to the TDU membership for approval at the upcoming TDU AGM on Feb 16th in Sport HQ in Dublin.
http://tdu.ie/index.php/2013/01/new-ski ... rectories/
JPPost edited by: johnpierce, at: 2013/01/23 12:09
Revised Skills Awards
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johnpierce
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- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
Hi Conor,
A fair request. I have edited the file and highlighted areas of change. There has been an amount of formatting - moving points around to make more sense in terms of grouping under headings also. That\'s the best I can do for now...
The ordinary sea kayaker can comment at will. Any or all feedback welcome. Unfortunately only qualified instructors and coaches can vote on the day. The committee are proposing that all the changes be adopted.
Regards,
JP
A fair request. I have edited the file and highlighted areas of change. There has been an amount of formatting - moving points around to make more sense in terms of grouping under headings also. That\'s the best I can do for now...
The ordinary sea kayaker can comment at will. Any or all feedback welcome. Unfortunately only qualified instructors and coaches can vote on the day. The committee are proposing that all the changes be adopted.
Regards,
JP
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alanhorner
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
Hi JP,
My thruppence worth as follows:
Level 3 Sea Kayak Skills
There are not too many changes here and what is proposed is quite modest.
That said there is a big gap between L2 skills and L3 Sea Skills – which I surmise is as a result of bring L3/L4 closer to L5 so that there is a better level of skill achieved at an earlier stage making the stepping stone to l5 more achievable.
So there does need to be some further thought put into L2 Kayak Skills which isn’t a compulsory module but recent results at L3 assessment will tell you that there are more failures resulting from the higher level of skill requirement at this stage.
So perhaps something to be considered to bridge the gap between current L2 and L3
Inclusion of Sculling for Support.
It’s one skill at which some Sea Kayakers are not so proficient at and indeed takes time to learn and get comfortable in doing.
Unfortunately there is a broad opinion that question’s its inclusion at L3 Sea skills.
Personally I can see the benefits it has in terms of paddle control and indeed in progress towards more competetent Eskimo Rolling.
That said it could be more relevant to bring this in as a skill at L4.
Hanging Draw
Again a very useful stroke to learn and use when Rockhopping or in proximity to other obstacles you would rather not collide with etc. So agree it should be added at this stage.
X-RESCUE
One area where we need to re-look at x-rescue is the method of re-entry.
Generally taught on flat water is with the kayaks bow to stern and re-entry to the kayak between the rescuer and the empty Kayak.
I think at L3 with the progression from flat water to F3 conditions – that there should be some training invested into re-entry to the kayak on the outer side of the rescue and also practice in rescues where bow to bow is desirable. Techniques such as Heel & Hook and over the back deck types of re-entry to be encouraged so that the L3 paddler has a repertoire that can be used dependant on the sea conditions etc.
LEVEL 4 SEA SKILLS
Perhaps to consider introduction of additional stroke skills here such as
• Cross Bow Rudder
• Hanging Pry on the move
• Bow Draw or Pry.
It is mentioned that :-
Sea Paddlers of varying experience seek Level 4 Sea Kayak Skills
training and it is not always safe or appropriate that trainees immediately seek to paddle without competent leaders. It is necessary to seek the advice of the course organiser on this issue.
Can “Competent leader” be defined by the TDU – as so far there is no specific award for “Sea Kayak Leader” but it would be most useful if guidelines were produce by TDU for the benefit of Sea Kayak Clubs and Associations.
That\'s all folks
Cheers
Alan
My thruppence worth as follows:
Level 3 Sea Kayak Skills
There are not too many changes here and what is proposed is quite modest.
That said there is a big gap between L2 skills and L3 Sea Skills – which I surmise is as a result of bring L3/L4 closer to L5 so that there is a better level of skill achieved at an earlier stage making the stepping stone to l5 more achievable.
So there does need to be some further thought put into L2 Kayak Skills which isn’t a compulsory module but recent results at L3 assessment will tell you that there are more failures resulting from the higher level of skill requirement at this stage.
So perhaps something to be considered to bridge the gap between current L2 and L3
Inclusion of Sculling for Support.
It’s one skill at which some Sea Kayakers are not so proficient at and indeed takes time to learn and get comfortable in doing.
Unfortunately there is a broad opinion that question’s its inclusion at L3 Sea skills.
Personally I can see the benefits it has in terms of paddle control and indeed in progress towards more competetent Eskimo Rolling.
That said it could be more relevant to bring this in as a skill at L4.
Hanging Draw
Again a very useful stroke to learn and use when Rockhopping or in proximity to other obstacles you would rather not collide with etc. So agree it should be added at this stage.
X-RESCUE
One area where we need to re-look at x-rescue is the method of re-entry.
Generally taught on flat water is with the kayaks bow to stern and re-entry to the kayak between the rescuer and the empty Kayak.
I think at L3 with the progression from flat water to F3 conditions – that there should be some training invested into re-entry to the kayak on the outer side of the rescue and also practice in rescues where bow to bow is desirable. Techniques such as Heel & Hook and over the back deck types of re-entry to be encouraged so that the L3 paddler has a repertoire that can be used dependant on the sea conditions etc.
LEVEL 4 SEA SKILLS
Perhaps to consider introduction of additional stroke skills here such as
• Cross Bow Rudder
• Hanging Pry on the move
• Bow Draw or Pry.
It is mentioned that :-
Sea Paddlers of varying experience seek Level 4 Sea Kayak Skills
training and it is not always safe or appropriate that trainees immediately seek to paddle without competent leaders. It is necessary to seek the advice of the course organiser on this issue.
Can “Competent leader” be defined by the TDU – as so far there is no specific award for “Sea Kayak Leader” but it would be most useful if guidelines were produce by TDU for the benefit of Sea Kayak Clubs and Associations.
That\'s all folks
Cheers
Alan
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eddieoshea
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
John, thanks for highlighting the proposed changes to the certification. It makes it easier to understand what the differences are. It’s very important for standards to be constantly reviewed and updated, so well done to TDU for all the work gone into this. However, one of the changes jumped out at me.
Paragraph 6.03 of Level 5 Sea Kayak Skills relates to the assessment;
\"6.03 Have recorded in a Level 5 Sea Kayak Skills Logbook, following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme, a minimum of at least 10 trips of varying types in slight to moderate seas and Force 3 to 8 winds under the supervision of peer paddlers or if possible at least two registered Level 4 Sea Kayak Instructors\".
Could you provide more clarification on what is being proposed here and particularly why TDU feel it necessary for Level 5 aspiring paddlers to be supervised? If this is enforced it could prove very difficult for most to go forward for assessment as L4 instructors are fairly thin on the ground.
Also could you clarify why only trips taken after the training are eligible and previous trips are excluded?
Again, thanks for posting the proposed changes for all to see and comment on.
Eddie
Post edited by: eddieoshea, at: 2013/01/27 23:16Post edited by: eddieoshea, at: 2013/01/27 23:23
Paragraph 6.03 of Level 5 Sea Kayak Skills relates to the assessment;
\"6.03 Have recorded in a Level 5 Sea Kayak Skills Logbook, following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme, a minimum of at least 10 trips of varying types in slight to moderate seas and Force 3 to 8 winds under the supervision of peer paddlers or if possible at least two registered Level 4 Sea Kayak Instructors\".
Could you provide more clarification on what is being proposed here and particularly why TDU feel it necessary for Level 5 aspiring paddlers to be supervised? If this is enforced it could prove very difficult for most to go forward for assessment as L4 instructors are fairly thin on the ground.
Also could you clarify why only trips taken after the training are eligible and previous trips are excluded?
Again, thanks for posting the proposed changes for all to see and comment on.
Eddie
Post edited by: eddieoshea, at: 2013/01/27 23:16Post edited by: eddieoshea, at: 2013/01/27 23:23
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martinguilfoyle
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
This is my own personal opinion and I do not speak for anyone but myself.
I fully endorse formal training and a system of awards.
However I feel there is too much emphasis on box ticking and very little on overall /general seamanship. Box ticking excercises is a modern trend in all assessments in many walks of life but much is often missed or a wrong picture is painted of an individual or situation.
I would suggest less emphasis on box ticking and more on the overall ability of the individual.
How many of us would pass a driving test after 20 years on the road? Does that make us incompetent drivers?
Martin
I fully endorse formal training and a system of awards.
However I feel there is too much emphasis on box ticking and very little on overall /general seamanship. Box ticking excercises is a modern trend in all assessments in many walks of life but much is often missed or a wrong picture is painted of an individual or situation.
I would suggest less emphasis on box ticking and more on the overall ability of the individual.
How many of us would pass a driving test after 20 years on the road? Does that make us incompetent drivers?
Martin
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leonconway
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
Rule 6.03 (proposed for approval on Feb 16th, 2013): - \"Have recorded in a Level 5 Sea Kayak Skills Logbook, following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme, a minimum of at least 10 trips of varying types in slight to moderate seas and Force 3 to 8 winds under the supervision of peer paddlers or if possible at least two registered Level 4 Sea Kayak Instructors\".
John,
Many thanks to the TDU cttee who\'ve put in the revision time and effort to improve safety and proficiency standards in our sport.
A few thoughts to add to Eddie\'s comments-
Level 4 kayakers since qualifying at that level, may have clocked up Level 5 qualifying trips in accordance with TDU\'s own contemporaneous rules for Level 5 qualification i.e. the rules in force up to now. If rule 6.03 (above) is enacted as currently worded, it would seem to invalidate any Level 5 qualifying trips which a Level 4 kayaker may have already completed and logged towards Level 5 qualification if those same trips were undertaken prior to the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme rather than \"following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme\". Is that a correct interpretation?
6.03 as currently worded, also seems to mean that even trips which have been completed under the supervision of qualified Level 4 instructors as part of a Level 4 kayaker\'s Level 5 qualifying experience, will be invalid for assessment if they were taken before and not \"following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme\". Again, I may be reading it wrong ? Can you clarify?
Best wishes,
Leon
John,
Many thanks to the TDU cttee who\'ve put in the revision time and effort to improve safety and proficiency standards in our sport.
A few thoughts to add to Eddie\'s comments-
Level 4 kayakers since qualifying at that level, may have clocked up Level 5 qualifying trips in accordance with TDU\'s own contemporaneous rules for Level 5 qualification i.e. the rules in force up to now. If rule 6.03 (above) is enacted as currently worded, it would seem to invalidate any Level 5 qualifying trips which a Level 4 kayaker may have already completed and logged towards Level 5 qualification if those same trips were undertaken prior to the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme rather than \"following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme\". Is that a correct interpretation?
6.03 as currently worded, also seems to mean that even trips which have been completed under the supervision of qualified Level 4 instructors as part of a Level 4 kayaker\'s Level 5 qualifying experience, will be invalid for assessment if they were taken before and not \"following the completion of a Level 5 Kayak Skills Training Programme\". Again, I may be reading it wrong ? Can you clarify?
Best wishes,
Leon
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johnpierce
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- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
OK, here goes... I\'m only commenting on points specific to the awards scheme changes. Any of the other comments or concerns on standards etc are another issue and can be sent to committee@tdu.ie along with any ideas on solutions etc.
Alan the hanging draw is included at Level 3 as a result of the alignment of awards with EPP (EuroPaddlePass) standards.
On the X rescue I agree completely. It is not specified anywhere that a particular type of re entry should be used as different conditions, boats fitness levels etc. will require the rescuer to have a number of different approaches to re entry.
On the competent leader bit it most likely should be changed to reflect the awards we do have. Maybe Level 3 Instructor (or higher) or Level 4 or 5 skills paddler?
Eddie and Leon the proposed change to logging requirements for Level 5 Skills 6.03 should not be restrictive in the least. One of the reasons behind the revision is to bring the skills awards in different disciplines in line with each other. This new point is similar to the requirement in the river scheme. No one is saying Level 5 trainees need to be supervised but it could only be advantageous to the process of gaining more experience in advanced conditions by getting out paddling with a Level 4 Sea Instructor if they can. Peer paddling is perfectly acceptable. Any previous experience is definitely taken into account (there is a section in the logbook to record these) but the logging of at least 10 trips after the training is seen as appropriate to consolidate the skills learnt on the training course.
Some very interesting post. Cheers for the feedback!
I\'m sure I\'ve missed some things there.
JP
Alan the hanging draw is included at Level 3 as a result of the alignment of awards with EPP (EuroPaddlePass) standards.
On the X rescue I agree completely. It is not specified anywhere that a particular type of re entry should be used as different conditions, boats fitness levels etc. will require the rescuer to have a number of different approaches to re entry.
On the competent leader bit it most likely should be changed to reflect the awards we do have. Maybe Level 3 Instructor (or higher) or Level 4 or 5 skills paddler?
Eddie and Leon the proposed change to logging requirements for Level 5 Skills 6.03 should not be restrictive in the least. One of the reasons behind the revision is to bring the skills awards in different disciplines in line with each other. This new point is similar to the requirement in the river scheme. No one is saying Level 5 trainees need to be supervised but it could only be advantageous to the process of gaining more experience in advanced conditions by getting out paddling with a Level 4 Sea Instructor if they can. Peer paddling is perfectly acceptable. Any previous experience is definitely taken into account (there is a section in the logbook to record these) but the logging of at least 10 trips after the training is seen as appropriate to consolidate the skills learnt on the training course.
Some very interesting post. Cheers for the feedback!
I\'m sure I\'ve missed some things there.
JP
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martinduffy
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
Hi JP et all
I think it would make things easier for aspirant level 5 or trainee instructors if there was a list if level 3,4 and 5 instructors similar to what we have for river instructors. It would make it much easier to contact people and possibly take some of the pressure off the actual providers who I\'m sure get asked a lot due to their higher profiles.
On the logging if trips from a personal point of view I definitely do things differently after the level 5 training than I did before so I can see the benefits of only logging trips after the training.
Martin
I think it would make things easier for aspirant level 5 or trainee instructors if there was a list if level 3,4 and 5 instructors similar to what we have for river instructors. It would make it much easier to contact people and possibly take some of the pressure off the actual providers who I\'m sure get asked a lot due to their higher profiles.
On the logging if trips from a personal point of view I definitely do things differently after the level 5 training than I did before so I can see the benefits of only logging trips after the training.
Martin
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johnpierce
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- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
Hi Martin.
I agree it would be great to have those lists up. There are data protection issues from Canoeing Ireland\'s point of view that are hard to get around... There was a call out in the last TDU newsletter https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57063933/TDU%2 ... letter.pdf as well for instructors to give permission for their details (name, area, e-mail) to be published on a list. I think 2 instructors replied!
The Sea Skills Directory has been updated.
3 changes:
Assessment ratio for Level 3 sea Skills changed to 1:6.
Dealt with competent leader issue
Some formatting at the start of the Level 5 Sea Skills.
JP
I agree it would be great to have those lists up. There are data protection issues from Canoeing Ireland\'s point of view that are hard to get around... There was a call out in the last TDU newsletter https://dl.dropbox.com/u/57063933/TDU%2 ... letter.pdf as well for instructors to give permission for their details (name, area, e-mail) to be published on a list. I think 2 instructors replied!
The Sea Skills Directory has been updated.
3 changes:
Assessment ratio for Level 3 sea Skills changed to 1:6.
Dealt with competent leader issue
Some formatting at the start of the Level 5 Sea Skills.
JP
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johnpierce
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am
Re:Revised Skills Awards
For anyone interested, new Paddlesurf Skills Awards for 2013.
Get clicking!
http://tdu.ie/index.php/2013/02/new-paddlesurf-awards/
Get clicking!
http://tdu.ie/index.php/2013/02/new-paddlesurf-awards/