ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Posts by the ISKA committee for discussion by members and posts by members for the attention of ISKA committee
Alan Horner
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Alan Horner » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:56 pm

Nailing my colours firmly to the mast or paddle
I have been pro-insurance for many a year.

In 2016 finally after years of debate the East Coast club took the plunge and bought insurance cover

Why ?
The main argument for having a cover for the club was fourfold
1/ Cover for the committee members who run the club and dictate its policies
2/ Cover for the trip leaders who take on the responsibility to take out club members throughout the year
3/ Public liability cover for the club both on and off the water
4/ personal cover for the membership

What has changed ?
Aside from the need to pay out an extra eur10 per member. Nothing has really changed in the way the. Club is being run and in the way meets are organised. There are no restrictions on the type of meets we run or the weather conditions in which we take our trips. Aside from the usual weather related restrictions and setting some safety guidelines for the type of paddle and relative experience of the members paddling.

One main change is that we now insist that new members joining have at least a level2 qualification
Which is the basic entry level flat water training.
We are not equipped as a training body and this additional level of discipline for new members
Did not cause too much difficulty for members. Owning into the sport.

Another change is that peer paddles without an appointed trip leader fall outside the insurance cover
And that new members have to have joined and paid their fees including insurance before that can come out with the club.


Trip leaders & qualifications etc
The trip leaders for Ecskc hold Level 4 / 4* as a minimum some have progressed to L5/5*
We do extra leader training and supplementary training weekends for them.
Most of these folks are also leading trips for ISka

Restricted numbers/ Ratios etc.
We also operate in a information void not knowing exactly how many paddlers and what level of their experience will turn out on any particular day.
It is not as pronounced an issue as it can be with ISKA.
Some thought by the committee into this issue will be needed with safety on the water as paramount.
It is more a safety issue than specifically an insurance problem and might be tackled by drawing up some guidelines for meets and members attending meets.

I hear the arguments - Nothing broken - What's to be fixed ?
It's a valid point. ISka has run perfectly well without this extra expense for a long time.
The reality is that some of this cover is a "Nice to have"
BUT
In today's world where paddlers or indeed their families can become litigious
Committee and Trip leaders especially feel that they are vulnerable.
Don't forget they are the people in ISka or other clubs which take the responsibility on their shoulders and are potentially first targets for aggrieved relatives after a tragedy.
Who wants to take on a voluntary position and risk a family home in a costly court case ?
There is a genuine fear factor of this nature that prevents some able paddlers from taking on such roles.

Advantages for ISka with insurance cover
The added comfort of insurance for trip leaders and committee members willing to take positions of responsibility will hopefully encourage others to take these relatively onerous duties on their shoulders.

Hire of venues such as swimming pools, camping grounds etc becomes easier/possible with public liability insurance

As Ecskc membership overlaps with ISka I hope that if ISka do go the insurance route
That some coordination of the cover can be made so that we can somehow gain a common insurance policy.
We have done the groundwork already and I know that ISka committee can easily access the insurance broker and policy documents as needed.

Wishing Mary and the committee members well in this one as its always very difficult to see the benefits of insurance and indeed the whole idea is that we continue to plan our sea paddling within a safe environment
Especially so when we have other less experienced paddlers under our wing and that we never should seek to actually rely on the cover.

Alan

Brian Blake
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:46 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Brian Blake » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:02 pm

We the members of ISKA are an Association of like minded individuals and as an Association it works. ISKA Is not a club. I've had many trips and symposiums where you hook up with people that you may not see that often.

It's an Association that wants to harness people into joining and enjoying sea kayaking not alienating people into having levels of proficiency before they can join.

With insurance are we going to have to do a risk assessment on every slipway or beach before we launch, of what hazards or potential hazards that we may or may not encounter along the way, what if we get a bad score on this assessment do we pack our kayaks back up onto our cars and head home.

Would there have to be an appointed committee member or leader who would have to do this assessment ?

Would this mean The Come And Try It Weekend in Streamstown would no longer take place ?

I for one would not be in favour of going down this insurance route. We are responsible for our own self and do look out for everyone in the group as we paddle along on our peer paddles.

Brian

Chris McDaid
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Chris McDaid » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:38 pm

In reply to Alan,

Some very valid points. However, ISKA is not a club, and by definition every trip at a meet is a peer paddle, which renders the insurance cover pointless. I have already said on this thread that I submitted proposals as a viable alternative to insurance, which will protect every paddler attending a meet. This information was requested by a committee member and was an enquiry as to what the SSKEG group do in Scotland. Its a very simple alternative. Hopefully this will be made available to ISKA members in due course so a reasoned debate can take place

Alan, out of curiosity, can you give info on the leader/paddler ratio required by the ECSKC insurance? It has been said on another forum that insurance doesn't "fundamentally change sea kayaking". No one is claiming that it does. It will fundamentally change ISKA tho, and the all inclusive nature of what ISKA do will be lost. Thats what makes ISKA great, and we are looked on with envy by other countries paddlers. This is what and who we are, it isn't broken and it doesn't need fixed.

Cheers,
Chris

mcorbett
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by mcorbett » Thu Jul 21, 2016 7:33 am

moved this topic to this new forum.
iskaadmin
Site Admin

Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:32 am

Can you send link/details please?

M.
I would agree with Evi et al above. I see enough rules & regulations. I'm not going to have it in my sea kayaking. Freedom is surely the point. Common sense & consensus has served well.

Alan Horner
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:22 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Alan Horner » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:44 pm

I do have to agree ISKA has always been an association of Sea Kayakers.
Outside of ISKA Meets there is a mix of both informal peer clubs and more formal clubs like East Coast and perhaps Phoenix in Cork and others I'm sure.

let's define a Peer Paddle
It's fundamentally where all paddlers are of equal competence experience & ability etc.

However where Iska provides a scheduled meet - this is generally a led meet where ISKA as a body has undertaken to
- Organise the meet by the Associations National Committee
- The committee seek to appoint an organiser / trip leader(s) and
Fundamentally want to ensure that this person(s) has the relevant competency to take a group of paddlers of average ability to sea, in reasonable sea/ weather conditions.

I know from personal experience that these trip leaders don't just show up and hope for the best .
They (should) check and understand the weather and tidal conditions. Assess the risks of the trip they plan. And ensure they and the group have the equipment and competency to undertake the journey.

Call it what you will but they do take charge and maintain control and take on a responsibility for the paddlers in their charge.

Talk about insurance restricting what we do Is in my opinion - complete rubbish.

Fundamental Safety at Sea Is the restriction on what we do .

Qualifications
Yes in the more formal club structure at east coast we use qualifications as a basic measure of competency.
We run approx 80 - 100 trips through the year for our members .
In that structure we need to give equal opportunity to paddlers at the beginner stage up to advanced stage
So we do grade our meets
From easy to intermediate and advanced.
I'm not suggesting for a moment that Iska follow this model for the type of meet they plan .

In the past Iska meets were always pitched at the competent and fit paddler at ICU Level 3
Let's put some numbers to grade a typical ISKA trip
Say ICU level 3 , distances of 20 - 25km, sea conditions say 1m surf, wind F3/4 tops F5

Decisions by the trip leader to go for longer distances or go out in more challenging conditions need more careful planning and knowledge of the ability of the paddlers within the group.
As ISKA has grown over the 20+years I have been involved - the number of paddlers has also grown
which means that if I lead a meet I can expect complete uncertainty about
The competency skill level and fitness of the paddlers that show up
The numbers that might show up etc
It's a very different scenario from a regular club meet where you know most of the paddlers etc

Just to say that ISKA has always promoted "Peer led meets" alongside the "Lead" meets - so there is room for both

Exceptions to the rule are also the CATITWE meets
These are great fun and indeed it was at CATITWE's in Streamstown and Saltee is that I first got out with Iska.
More care about ratios of leaders and competent paddlers to new paddlers need to be considered when leading trips with new paddlers. (Oh no that Ratio word has cropped up !!)
Suffice to say that Insurance won't preclude CATITWE meets but of their nature they need a higher level of care than your average meet due to the potential for paddlers of lower ability to go on these trips.

RATIOS
I've done trips as an instructor. Ratio 1:6 or 1:8
In those circumstances taking complete beginners in even benign sea conditions can be very challenging.
Again I stress this strict ratio idea is getting into instructor and training territory.
Not really the aim of the average Iska meet.

All that said any competent trip leader will always want to know the key expert paddlers within his group.
Paddlers whom can be relied upon to assist when things go pear shaped
There is a ratio idea in there somewhere - but let's not get hung up on strict ratios.

PEER PADDLING
I do agree it would be a pity to lose the freedom of peer paddling.
To over complicate Iska meets with an over reliance on qualifications etc.

That said the committee need to always find a balance between the safety aspect of what they do
And the adventurous nature of the sport which comes with inherent risks.
Best we can do is minimise the risks that means training, good practice and a suitable level of control for the formal Iska meet.
Happy accommodation of peer led paddles within that structure has to be accepted of course.

Insurance - well it's a cushion or a safety net - there for people who take charge to get a modicum of comfort. It should never be the limiting factor instead common sense reached ideally through formal qualifications perhaps administered through Iska itself, still has to be the baseline we work to.

Formal Qualifications - seem to be another RED FLAG issue for some paddlers.
That's fair enough - If I'm meet leader I will never ask for you to produce a certificate.
I must just assume all paddlers are able for the trip as advertised.
If a paddler is not able - well we will have a problem - the group will have a problem, the trip will be compromised to some degree but that's the nature of the beast we have to accept it's one of the risks in adventure sport.

All I'll say is that ISKA Committee have to at least make best efforts to ensure safety
this has to involve some measurement of the competency of the paddlers they ask to lead a trip
whether this is formal & certified or experience and knowledge based is down to ISKA Committee's own policy on safety.

So let's say that finally
- Peer paddling will always continue alongside/outside of the formal meets - this need not be impinged BUT as ECSKC has established Insurance does not cover it.
- Fear or indeed hatred of rules and regulations is not an answer it's a reaction
no matter what if we don't take some training informal or other - then we don't necessarily learn the best way
all training is essentially having experts to impart their knowledge and experience allowing us to absorb it as best we can.

If ISKA do decide to go down the Insurance road
- Freedom to paddle need not be impaired
- Members will still be expected to have a level competency (certified or not) suited to the trip being planned
- ISKA has a duty of care to it's members to maintain some standards of safety on it's formally advertised "led" trips
- Members should have a duty of care back to ISKA's Committee and Trip Leaders to give them a modicum of comfort and protection of a basic insurance policy (FYI - It's called "Directors and Officers Cover") in case of a disaster.

Good debating so far - pity most of the comments are on the negative side
it's always an emotional subject :)

Chris McDaid
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Chris McDaid » Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:04 pm

Alan,

Again, some very valid points. I disagree with this tho "Talk about insurance restricting what we do Is in my opinion - complete rubbish". A case in point, Inishlackan West Coast meet last summer, over 40 paddlers. To the best of my knowledge, no instructors. Would the insurance cover of the ECKSC club cover that? If not, it restricts what we do.

Secondly, with the exception of the annual Symposium and the training weekends, all the ISKA meets are peer meets. The only formal ones are as mentioned.

Thirdly, I agree safety is paramount, yet this does not necessarily mean insurance has to be in place. Tightening up of membership is the first step. Too many meets are attended by non members. A meet organiser should know if attendees are members and what their respective abilities are. Thats a no brainer.

If ISKA meets can continue as they always have, without restrictions and insurance can cover them no one would have a problem with it.

Another possible issue would be what insurance would define as a trip "leader". (Personally, I hate that word, it encourages the sheep mentality). There isn't an insurance company on the planet that in the event of a claim, wouldn't consult the experts in the field and in this jurisdiction, that is Canoeing Ireland. Their "best practice" is so limiting its ridiculous. Even clubs dont have enough instructors to adhere to their "best practice". Insurance companies dont like paying out, and any excuse not to, they'll find it. I see that the EKSKC states that all official club paddle (the ones covered by the insurance policy) attendees must be at least certified level 2. Is it the case that this is enforced? (and i doubt it is).If not, you're insurance is null and void.

There could and should be common ground to be found within this debate. There are other ways to protect ourselves without insurance and these should be explored and debated on in a calm and mature manner.

Contrary to what has been suggested elsewhere, the Westies who've commented on this thread arent all left wing socialists nor fascist dictators, and comments such as that are utterly divisive.

Again Alan, it is a pleasure to have a rational debate with you.

Cheers,
Chris

brianmacmahon
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by brianmacmahon » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:30 pm

Hmmm just had a quick recce over at the ECSKA forum.
Interesting points made there. Was wondering what Chris was referring to regarding socialist westies :lol:
Such resolve on the ECSKA site should be shared by all. It'd be nice if they would be so good as to share their feelings regarding ISKA on the ISKA forum so that we may respond in a measured and thoughtful but respectful manner. Not sure whether the ECSKA crew ever peruse our WISKA forum but if they did they would see that we confine our comments regarding ISKA to the ISKA site. It's only right that the ISKA membership should be allowed to respond to points raised.
Or perhaps that's the socialist in us. Or maybe we are fascists I'm a bit confused as to what we are now.

Mac

DaveWalsh
Posts: 163
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by DaveWalsh » Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:45 pm

As the closest thing I know of in Irish sea kayaking to a self professed “fascist dictator”, I feel in a privilged position now contributing further to this debate. I am by accident of birth an Eastie but I am Westie in my bone marrow. I love their style. To demonstrate, I bumped into them a few years ago just before Chrstmas in Linnanes of New Quay and instinctively joined them for a pint. It was half an hour before I realised they were conducting their AGM. How I noticed was when someone proposed doubling their annual subscription and everyone agreed, whereupon I was told the sub had just shot up from zero to zero. I really just love it.

In the pre-democracy phase of iSKA (FECK too) everything was done by an individual (Geo, then me, then me and Des Keaney) but the accepted term then was “benevolent autocrat”, stated in a half-joking whole-serious sorta way. I hope its just a case of someone now not being quite as house trained as folks were back in the 1990s, that if such things are being said its just bad manners or whatever, and someone will step back, or be told by friends to. I hope there isn’t real anger out there, and if there is I hope I’m not the object of it, but even if I am I’ll take it. I did what I did when I did it how I did it, and I can’t and wouldn’t change any of it now. It was right for the time that was in it. Things evolve, even I accept that, well almost ……. ISKA and FECK were subsumed by democracy in time, with less of a struggle in FECK because Des, unlike me, had an open mind, encouraging even.

The term fascist is frequently too loosely used. Fascism defies definition, but any attempt at its description is multi-faceted (no pun intended), and no such attempt would ever not include a minority clique bullying the majority and imposing its will on them by the force of its passion, commitment, by shouting loudest, and worse. Benevolent autocracy on the other hand involves the Great Leader looking into his/her heart to know what’s best for the ordinary foot soldiers, doing the right thing, just doing the right thing the wrong way. None of us 1990s leaders were ever accused that I recall of pushing the agenda of a clique upon the masses. I’m really leaving myself open there, I know, I know.

BTW, ICU have had for years an insurance scheme, very reminiscent of what Alan Horner describes FECK got privately elsewhere. Disclaimers are another option in the non-commercial all-adult environment, but they are unwieldy, and to be honest, obnoxious, they would put anybody off. In my heart I will always favour the ostrich approach.

DWalsh

PS Maybe if we'd had all these electronic discussion forums in the 1990s I'd have heard more disgruntlement ........

eddieoshea
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by eddieoshea » Fri Jul 22, 2016 4:45 pm

As an ECSKC member and leader my experience of club insurance is positive.
It hasn't changed the way we organise club trips or prevented us from going out in challenging conditions. Leaders continue to make informed decisions on the slipway based on sea conditions, forecast and the overall ability of the group, same as we did before insurance came along.
Contrary to most views expressed here, insurance has probably helped to increase the number of active leaders which in turn increases opportunities for new members to get on the water. Most leaders feel that we have a level of cover in the event of someone suffering serious injury under our watch. Like it or not we live in litigious times and no one is immune from it.

In ISKA, we may define trips as peer trips but someone has planned the trip, published details, someone will navigate on the water and may need to make decisions if an incident occurs. Exactly the responsibilities of a leader, no matter what name you give it. So I am not sure that the 'peer group' argument is valid.
Insurance hasn't changed the spirit and ethos of ECSKC and I dont see why it would be any different for ISKA.

Eddie O'S

Chris McDaid
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: ISKA Committee Meet & Email

Post by Chris McDaid » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:27 pm

Eddie & Alan,

Please provide the following info in order to further the debate. All I'm hearing is "insurance is positive etc etc". Can either of you flesh it out a bit please?

What is required by the insurance company in order to make sure club trips are covered?
What is the leader ratio required by the insurance company and is it always enforced?
Is the minimum level 2 certified paddler rule rigorously enforced?
What is the ECSKC ratio of club paddles v peer paddles?
Would you accept that naming a leader who is certified as such puts huge responsibility on them?
Does ECSKC club insurance cover against a claim of negligence against a leader or the committee?
Would you agree that demanding a level 2 cert is in a way restrictive and elitist? (everything ISKA isn't)
Is the insurance cover provided more comprehensive than that given by becoming an individual member of CANI?
Are you aware that in Irish Law, a club is regarded as an unincorporated organisation, with the following rules?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/tr ... _club.html

Specifically refer to the "club structure" section

Eddie, this ones for you "In ISKA, we may define trips as peer trips but someone has planned the trip, published details, someone will navigate on the water and may need to make decisions if an incident occurs". Exactly the same as ECSKC peer paddles I presume? Which are not covered by insurance. Whats the difference between them and ISKA meets? Given the ECSKC model you describe, by all means insure the Symposium and the training weekends, when providers are present, but not the peer meets??

I'm not familiar with the term "lefty pinko", so can someone please enlighten me? :D :D

Thanx,
Chris

Post Reply