Wild Atlantic Challenge

General discussion
Chancer
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by Chancer » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:32 pm

The point is that many ISKA members are also members of CI. Unless they are members of an affiliated club they are forced to pay 50 rather than 20 Euro simply because the committee refuse to affiliate ISKA. ISKA has been affiliated to CI for the past 25 yrs and only this year decided not to affiliate. The Wild Atlantic Challenge just highlights the difficulty this presents and the Cork Ocean Race also who insist on some form of insurance in order to participate. Ridiculous the value you get indeed for 20 Euro from CI which covers you for a whole years paddling. It costs 100 Euro to affiliate a club to CI yet could save ISKA members a lot in extra charges for no good reason. Whether you take out the CI insurance or not is irrelevant - thats your own business.

john.ruston
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:51 pm

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by john.ruston » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:40 pm

Insisting that only the insurance selected by and sold through CI and BCU should be allowed - - is wrong. It promotes a monopoly, removes consumer choice where a mature and effective market exists. It effectively insists on a closed shop.
It is nonsense.

JaneE
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:39 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by JaneE » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:31 am

Putting aside the matter of democratic decision-making where the ISKA members voted and told their Committee clearly what they wanted to happen as regards insurance and affiliation, as I understand it, it is impossible for ISKA to affiliate any longer to CI because CI changed their own rules relating to affiliation.

CI categorically insist that every single member of ISKA must also sign up and join as a member of CI if ISKA affiliates to CI. Unless every single member of ISKA does that, and can be compelled to do that by ISKA, it is not simply not open to the ISKA Committee to 'decide' to affiliate to CI because ISKA would be immediately in breach of CI's rules. CI's rules expressly prevent ISKA from being affiliated to them unless every single ISKA member is also a member of CI. This particular issue has got nothing to do with insurance - insurance is merely a by-product of membership of CI by virtue of it being one of their member benefits. ISKA was able to affiliate to CI in previous years because CI's rules were different - in previous years CI didn't insist on an affiliated club/body forcing each one of its members to take out CI membership. When CI changed their own rules the option for ISKA to affiliate was effectively removed as ISKA can't require all of its members to take up CI membership - it has no formal mechanism to do so and (more importantly) I suspect that such an idea would be entirely culturally unacceptable to many ISKA members. I suspect also that there will be ISKA members who are not eligible to be members of CI. I doubt that I could join CI as an individual since I am resident in Scotland and Scotland is my home nation governing body. Even if I could, why would I want to throw away yet more cash on a membership to CI that I neither want nor need? I already pay for Full Individual membership of the SCA and I pay club dues for my club(s) in Scotland. As a bonus, I am fully covered for all of my personal paddling liability worldwide by virtue of the excellent BCU insurance policy that comes as a benefit of Full Individual SCA/BCU membership.

Thankfully, unlike CI, at least in the UK the governing bodies do not force all of the members of all affiliated clubs to also take out a personal membership of their relevant governing body, an arrangement that seems somewhat questionable and certainly not in the spirit of what ISKA seems to me to be about.

Chancer
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by Chancer » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:38 am

Correct Jane this is not about insurance it's about affiliation. Good for you that you have SCA membership with all that gives you. Thiis is about giving members the best options. .ECSKC is an affiliated CI club where members who wish to join do so for €20 thereby availing of the cheaper rate. CI does not insist on all members joining. Nor would it make all ISKA members join either. You can take out whatever insurance you want John not just restricted to CI. It's not a monopoly. By the way ISKA affiliation was not democratically decided by the members only insurance was,
Last edited by Chancer on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chris McDaid
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by Chris McDaid » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:30 pm

Let’s be very clear here, ISKA would very much prefer to be affiliated to CI. Among other things, the committee would only be too delighted to be in a position to obtain discounted insurance rates for any member wishing to avail of it. 

CI’s new rules came into effect on the 5th November 2016 which are unclear and ambiguous to say the least. In the interest of protecting our members and to remove some of the uncertainty, we have asked CI on several occasions to clarify their position in writing. To date they have refused to put pen to paper. 

The new rules appear to indicate all members of an affiliated club must take the insurance. Without clarity it would be wrong of ISKA to give access to anything we have doubts over.



To say otherwise or to try and force the committee to act against their judgement is quite frankly wrong and reckless. 

On a further point of note, ISKA was a lapsed member of CI for several years. This was only reinstated in or around 2012/2013 when they were able to confirm individual membership was optional.

I have e mailed CI again seeking clarification and hopefully this time they’ll deem us worthy of a response

Cheers,
Chris

Chris McDaid
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:35 pm

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by Chris McDaid » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:44 am

E mail submitted to Canoeing Ireland on Friday 9th February.......

To whom it may concern,





The Irish Sea Kayaking Association are currently considering affiliation to Canoeing Ireland. Before we make that decision, there are a couple of questions we would like a definitive answer to, referring to your rule 5 in your constitution/memorandum/articles of association as they appear ambiguous and unclear .......



Rule 5.4 states - Clubs in applying for, or renewing their membership online shall submit their full roll of members.



Rule 5.5 states - Individual Members, Members of enrolled Clubs and Members of the Training and Development Unit shall be deemed members once the appropriate fee has been paid by them or on their behalf to Canoeing Ireland



Our questions are as follows......



1. Is it a requirement that if we affiliate that we must submit our member list?



2. Is it a requirement that if we affiliate, we must ensure all our members must pay the €20 membership fee?



3. If the answers to questions 1 & 2 are yes and we affiliate in clear breach of rule 5.4 & 5.5, will the liability insurance available to members of the Irish Sea Kayaking Association who do decide to sign up by paying the €20 fee to Canoeing Ireland be compromised/invalidated in any way?



We look forward to a reply at your earliest convenience



Regards,

Chris McDaid - Chairman Irish Sea kayaking Association

NOTE*** This is not the first time these questions have been asked of Canoeing Ireland

Chancer
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by Chancer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 5:03 pm

I know you have asked these questions from CI before Chris and note you are again sending in the same questions. It is unlikely CI will give you a response though it would be great if they did. The practice in reality is that if you affiliate and you send in a list of your club members then if individual members of the club wish to join CI they only pay 20 Euro instead of 50 Euro quoting their club membership. The individual joins independently of the club and gets a membership number. Once CI take your membership fee and issue you with a membership number you have access to all CI events and cover. If CI are in breach of their own rules the individual is not responsible and neither is ISKA.

brianmacmahon
Posts: 178
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by brianmacmahon » Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:14 pm

So let me get this straight.

ISKA affiliates with CI irregardless of the fact that we would be in breech of their own rules. Rules that were set down in their written terms and conditions.

God forbid one of our members feels the need to
make a claim on CI's insurance.
Yet the insurance company will happily overlook the breech of CI's written guidelines ?

Might I suggest Mick that instead of flogging a dead horse on ISKA's forum that you redirect your ire towards the elephant in the room that being Canoe Ireland. Perhaps if you weigh in with a barrage of emails to CI they might perk up and listen. Perhaps if they revert back to their previous terms and conditions then the Association would be only delighted to affiliate.

Chancer
Posts: 114
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by Chancer » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:56 pm

I like many in ECSKC and other clubs am a CI member. Not every member of my club is a member of CI. We pay 30 not 50 Euro for our membership. I have no ire to vent with CI or ISKA.
I have copied from CI the rules regarding membership of a club. Prices seem to have increased for 2018 slightly. Don't know if this clarifies anything for anyone or not.

''Club Membership

Who is it for?

Any group or club who wish to do their membership in bulk and wish to renew or register their club with Canoeing Ireland.

Costs:

The Annual Club Registration Fee is €150

The fee per senior club member to is €30

The fee per junior club member to is €10

Please note:

Only the secretary of a Canoeing Ireland registered club can register club members.
Members registration will be linked to the club registration renewal and expiry dates regardless of when a member pays fees.

You must first become a member of Canoeing Ireland to register a club.''

conorsmith
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 9:37 am

Re: Wild Atlantic Challenge

Post by conorsmith » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:30 pm

.

Make it stop someone, pleeaasssseeee....

https://media.giphy.com/media/11Wkoq2MaUbLXi/giphy.mp4




Apologies also to the organisers of the Wild Atlantic Challenge for their event advertisement being hacked and taken over. Perhaps if you repost people might have an opportunity to talk about the event itself.

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